The Bimbo And The Caveman: Relationships vs. Nature

By Daniel Miessler on June 10th, 2007: Tagged as Biology | Relationships | Romance | Science | Sex
  • smackson
    Very interesting article. Two points-- One, do you think the man's "sliding scale" of appropriate animalistic behavior extends to his solcial interactions / relations with the rest of the world? I mean, a woman sees and reacts to her man's fightin' prowess (as expressed towards other men) perhaps more than she does to his his bossiness towards her. So are there appropriate times for him to pick fights in front of her?

    Two, can a woman please leave a comment here? Seems almost like an echo chamber of one-sided (one-gender) responses so far.
  • Carl M
    Of course I didn't think you were advocating abusive relationships. I simply think that you are stating a tautology: "For people who like this sort of thing, this is the sort of thing that they would like." Well, no kidding.

    You seem to believe that people need it pointed out that they might like this sort of relationship. I was simply saying that your post SOUNDS a lot like the excuses that abusive men give to themselves (and others). Again .. I understand completely that you are not advocating anything non-consentual. It is very likely true that the early leaders of womens liberation tried to give a unified voice to women when no such unified voice exists. Women are not all alike (nor are men all alike .. nor are the members of any particular race all alike). But, those days have long passed and there is a general understanding that people are all different and have different needs. It is understood when women CHOOSE to leave their job to be full-time moms. It is even beginning to be understood when men make the choice to leave their job to be full-time dads.

    The point of your post seems to be "don't let the politically correct expectations of our current society dictate your path to happiness." I would say that a better message is "don't let ANYONE dictate your path to happiness." If you are in a relationship, then you should respect the other party and not believe that your opinion is any more valuable than theirs (at least in the context of the relationship). (I know that you agree with me on this -- I'm not accusing you of believing otherwise.) Trust, openness, respect, discussion, etc. are all important parts of a strong relationship, and those are all two-way things.

    Finally, I have to STRONGLY disagree with John Doe and: "The happiest relationship is one where the woman willingly gives her submission because she trusts her man to treat her right." That is one recipe for success (if the man does in fact treat her right -- and if the woman truly wishes such a relationship). It is also a recipe for dismal failure (if the man does NOT treat her right -- and it may be a subtle mental abuse that the woman does not even recognize as abuse -- she can't go out with friends? well, it's only fair .. after all, she should always be there for the man). The fact is that there is no single secret to a successful and happy relationship.
  • John Doe
    Thanks for telling it like it is. There really is a difference between what people think they want, what they say they want and what they really want. And of course, what is culturally / socially accepted or conditioned is a completely different thing again.

    There's a good point in the footnote nr. 3: The happiest relationship is one where the woman willingly gives her submission because she trusts her man to treat her right.
  • Carl, you use the word "abusive", and I would hope you understood that I'm not in any way advocating abuse or in any way INVOLUNTARY participation in this model. That's the whole point of the piece -- using our evolved, logical and equal footing to LEVERAGE our biological potential for generating happiness.


    It's basically a game that's agreed upon, as absolute equals, in order to enhance the relationship. Will some couples not want to do it? Sure. Will some women find the idea abhorrent? Sure. No worries. All I'm doing is proposing that there is happiness to be gained from understanding this dynamic of the human psyche, and that if done correctly we can harness it for the benefit of both the man *and* the woman.


    With the Mrs. Cleaver scenario where I said "She loves it" it's important to realize that she has a choice of whether to be in the "abusive" relationship or not. She can quite easily simply not be with this other brutish guy who makes all these demands. But she goes to him because it satisfies something within her to be treated in such a way.


    But make no mistake, the moment the couple loses the ability to rise up and speak as equals, and the woman loses her option to CHOOSE this lifestyle, it then becomes a simple, abusive relationship based on inequality. That's obviously NOT the way to go, and I would never condone that.


    Again, that's the point -- we need to be able to adjust ourselves on the sliding scale of primal to intellectual in order to tap into the best of what both worlds can offer to a relationship.



    Oh, and my chances of getting elected are hurt far more by my atheism than this, I assure you. Especially in this country. :)
  • Carl M
    OK, I've read the whole thing now. My new comment is that you've thrown away any chance of elected office. :)

    Seriously, I do think that it is absurd to imply that the most successful relataionships are those where the men tell the women what to do. And, to buy into the myth that women LOVE being dominated in this way is tragic. Sure, there are women who fit the description that you describe, but there are far more who rightly consider themselves to be the equals of the men they are with and do not wish to be told what to do. Are men and women the same? No, of course not. Is the desire for respect gender based? No, of course not. When one person dominates another in the way you describe (by telling them what to do, what to wear, etc.) it is degrading PRECISELY because it displays a lack of respect.

    The most dangerous part of your post (IMO) is:

    "Why does she endure this at the risk of losing everything?
    Because she loves it."

    This is what abusive men think to themselves (and even what friends of abused women once thought). It simply isn't true. Abused women do not stay because they love being abused. There is a complex set of reasons that some have difficulty leaving such a relationship, but "loving it" is not in the set.
  • Tom
    Yeah, nothing new here. Women want equality, yes, but they also want to be told what to do, both in and out of bed. And if they don't get their equality/submissiveness, they'll go elsewhere to find it.
  • Carl, you gotta read the whole thing, man. :)
  • Carl M
    OK, the comments make me think that I should read all the way through this post, but I clicked in quickly to respond just to say that I think it is absurd that anyone would maintain that sexuality has ANYTHING to do with rationality. Daniel, you're too rational to suggest something like this, so I will assume that later when I have time to read the full post, I'll discover that the later parts of the post pull back from your early implication.
  • Glen
    On the contrary ... I'm forwarding this TO my wife for her to read ....
  • uberto
    Jesus Key Riced my wife is gonna kill me if she catches me reading this.
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