The Nice Guy Paradox [Solved]
By Daniel Miessler on May 8th, 2007: Tagged as Musings | Psychology | Science | Sex | Women
Most guys know about the nice guy paradox. It’s where they’ve been told since they were young — both by women and by society in general — that women like “nice” guys. And because they’ve been told this over and over, most guys grow up trying this approach only to have reality kick them in the groin.
This bothers guys. A lot. Why would women claim to want someone who will treat them nice, but then repeatedly turn down or mistreat those that give them exactly what they claim to want? Well, I have the answer, and like most major truisms it’s pretty simple:
Women like when guys are nice to them, but only when they don’t have to be.
Think about that. Most guys exclusively using the “nice” approach are doormats, and many are so because that’s all they can be. They lack the attributes to attract a woman based on pure gravity (physical size/strength/prowess, ambition, sexuality, intelligence, money, etc.). As a result, these guys are essentially forced to grovel in order to attract a mate, which is patently unattractive.
Quite simply, women like powerful men to be nice to them, not feminized pseudo-men. A weak man being nice to a woman is essentially an act of submission, like a beggar bowing his head and calling you sir. Sure, they were respectful to you, but they just asked you for money so it’s not as meaningful as if it came from a peer or superior.
To get the true benefit of “nice” in the way that women enjoy, one has to be able to attract that same woman without being nice, i.e. by the sheer force of masculine character. Only once that foundation of primal respect is in place can the higher-order offerings such as kindness be appreciated. It’s counter-intuitive and it’s unpleasant, but we’re dealing with nature here. Don’t fight the rules. To do so is as pointless as picketing gravity or boycotting inertia.:
friendly advisories: dmiessler on “the nice guy paradox”…
Right guys. Let’s go to the really interesting topics: Why is SHE not responding to me although I am the nice guy she is dreaming of? dmiessler solves this riddle. I’m not astonished by his solution: First the guy has to be the superior alp…
Trackback by tapetenageln — 5/9/2007 @ 3:26 am
The Nice Guy Paradox has been Solved…
I’ve been saying this stuff for years. Brilliant, and well written. Now, go apply some newly-found knowledge! dmiessler.com | grep understanding knowledge: Technorati Tags: relationships, society, awesome……
Trackback by the Vagary. — 5/9/2007 @ 9:51 am
Some female opinions on the matter would be nice…
Comment by Daniel Miessler — 5/9/2007 @ 10:04 am
Nature, nature, nature…exactly.
Beyond the intelligence, charm, etc. we’re all animals and there’s no denying that a “man being a man” is going to attract me more so than a man who isn’t. I hate to relate it to caveman days but I am…minus the bop on the head.
I guarantee you that most women would prefer that a man approach them versus they approach a man. A man needs to step-up to be noticed.
Stop denying your animal nature, men…and then you’re bound to “capture” the woman you desire.
Comment by Marisol — 5/9/2007 @ 10:15 am
Impactful? Argh! MBA-speak drives me crazy. Anybody wanna Leverage their Existing Infrastructure, or Create Value by Driving New Paradigms across their Active Enterprises? Ooh baby.
Warren
Comment by warren — 5/9/2007 @ 10:44 am
Warren, you forgot about the synergy of the marketecture.
Comment by Daniel Miessler — 5/9/2007 @ 11:04 am
It’s about old-school, gender power politics. Men are just as much victims of old sexist cultural paradigms as women are.
“Quite simply, women like powerful men to be nice to them, not feminized pseudo-men. A weak man being nice to a woman is essentially an act of submission, like a beggar bowing his head and calling you sir.”
Kind of a strange and sexist way to explain it, but I understand what you’re trying to say here. Women seek power just like men do, but they are taught to seek it out in different - less explicit, more passive-aggressive - ways. Capturing the attention of a very typically ‘masculine’ man, whom society might percieve to have many options, is a way for women to acheive status and power in the eyes of society. And I really, honestly, don’t think ‘nice’ has very much to do with it.
Women want nice, but not at the expense of their power source. Testosterone.
Not trying to be internally misogynist, because most women I know derive their personal power from their own acheivements and self-esteem these days. But with all the female friends I’ve had with self-esteem problems, this passive-aggressive belief that we must borrow or steal male power to be important rears its ugly head.
Fucking weird, but I would say true.
Comment by Jenny — 5/9/2007 @ 11:15 am
Thank you Marisol and Jenny for your comments. It’s nice to see that there are women out there wiling to agree with my assessment of this less than ideal situation we (men and women) find ourselves in.
Comment by Daniel Miessler — 5/9/2007 @ 11:18 am
I totally agree with you, if the guy doesn’t have the physical features to attract a woman then he just submits to anything the woman desires so that she will like him for that.
Like you said, he becomes a doormat for the girl and I think some respect is lost for him not having a spine.
Comment by State Of Brain — 5/9/2007 @ 11:20 am
I must say though, that nice guys do better with women who have healthy self-esteems. I married my nice guy, and he is the best decision I ever made.
Women who don’t realize they are an autonomous source of power in the world tend to fall into this pattern of seeking out male power. And really, guys, do you want to date those women?
Yes, sometimes you do, you know why? Because they are too often the barbies, the princesses, the cheerleaders…power politics works both ways, you know.
:)
Food for thought.
Comment by Jenny — 5/9/2007 @ 11:25 am
I have a better idea - stop worrying about ‘capturing’ a woman entirely. Just ignore them. I tried to hook up with women I was attracted to for years, and it never amounted to anything. The day I decided it wasn’t worth the effort was the day everything turned around.
The time and effort I spent trying to attract women I instead put into simply enjoying life. I stopped worrying about how I looked or if something I said would cross some boundary. I had more time to exercise and concentrate on my hobbies ( which were inherently more rewarding anyway ). By deciding that women were a nuisance and not a primary value, I got back in touch with my philosophy, had time for reading, saved a ton of money by not going out to meet women - in general, I had a much better life and didn’t miss the chase one little bit.
I’ve been married now for almost seven years. My wife thought I was a jerk when we first met - and I didn’t care! I was fat and happy and busy doing interesting things. One more woman who didn’t find me attractive = no big hairy deal! Later, SHE was the one asking ME out. Once she started asking me out, other women suddenly wanted my attention too. And I was mostly too busy having fun doing things that didn’t involve “dating”. Eventually I moved in with her, and three years later we decided to make it permanent.
And that’s how it should always be anyway. Guys, get on with your lives. Women are an expensive and annoying distraction from the truly great things in life.
Comment by Scott — 5/9/2007 @ 11:26 am
Scott,
Women may be annoying and a waste to many men, but those words come from hurt. They come from frustration. Just ask Nietzsche (neet chuh). I would argue, however, that it’s often more harmful to ignore your animal than it is to learn the rules and win at the game. If you are built a certain way, and you try to deny that fact, you’re destined to go through life bitter and lonely.
I’d argue that what you did by “denying” women is actually what I promote in the piece; you “became” yourself and thus became more powerful than the version of you that was moping around asking for attention. The fact that you didn’t care lent to your allure.
At any rate, I’m glad it worked out. All I’m saying is that we should learn the rules and win instead of complaining that the rules should be different. The rules are defined by nature, and aren’t going to be changing any time soon.
Comment by Daniel Miessler — 5/9/2007 @ 11:33 am
Daniel,
You wrote: “Women may be annoying and a waste to many men, but those words come from hurt. They come from frustration.”
Scott clearly and emphatically stated this - I believe he was saying that the hurt and frustration is what caused him to withdraw and find himself.
Comment by mike — 5/9/2007 @ 11:51 am
An interesting recent article about a woman who pretended to be a man: http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Entertainment/story?id=1526982
She had some very interesting observations relating to dating.
Comment by Mark — 5/9/2007 @ 11:58 am
State of Brain:
“Physical Features” are not what attracts women. Think about it. The things women look for, a guy who’s in shape, well groomed, a musician, money, a sense of humor… These are all outward obvious symptoms of being mentally healthy. Women are attracted to someone who can help them make smart healthy babies.
Daniel Miessler’s point here is excellent and it really does display the “nice guy” paradox very well. A woman wants a nice guy but also wants to be dating up the social ladder, not down. Groveling is the least sexy thing in the world because it pegs you below her. She wants a guy who has enough social status or confidence to walk away from her at the drop of a hat, yet doesn’t and is still kind to her. Paradox indeed.
Jenny:
Calling this conversation sexists makes as much sense as calling statements like “Men are taller than women” or “Woman live longer than men” sexist. You would first need to prove that the ideas are, in general, wrong, and second you’d need to prove the the intent behind the statements was intended to hurt or minimize a gender. In this case you can prove neither. Men and woman are just very different and understating those differences is what makes getting along possible.
Comment by Blue Monkey — 5/9/2007 @ 11:58 am
Here’s an idea: women are isomorphic to men. Women are sentient beings. Men are sentient beings. Women want to be treated like men. Men want to be treated like women.
Fuck dating, fuck all of society. Who are you? If you can answer this then you can find the woman or man of your dreams.
I’m surprised that we’ve collectively managed to hold on to our heuristics and “rules” for so long. They build a strong relationship in roughly the same way that strong houses can be built on shifting sand.
Comment by Connelly Barnes — 5/9/2007 @ 12:07 pm
I’m going to agree with Scott. My frustration didn’t end until I said “Screw the pursuing, I’m going to live my life and do the things that make me happy and healthy.”
Lo and behold, I became desirable. I’ve been married for almost 13 years now.
As much as I’d like to say the screw-it attitude helped, I think it was more a matter of self-confidence. Demonstrating that I didn’t need someone to validate my life helped me make it a more appealing one to somebody else.
And guys? If you weigh over two hundred pounds and it’s not due to muscle, you need to dump the beer and pizza and work off the gut. Women won’t ever admit it, but when they see a fat guy, they think “if he can’t take care of himself he won’t be any good at taking care of me or any babies that come along.” Even if she’s completely self-sufficient, she’s thinking this.
Comment by Daveman — 5/9/2007 @ 12:16 pm
Hi all. I’m a 30-something married guy who went from shy, nice, quiet person (high school and slightly after) to not so shy, still nice but assertive and I can tell you that made all the difference. Up until the age of 19, I had exactly 1 date. After deciding to be more assertive I… well, let’s just say I made up for lost time. Here are my “stats”: I’m quite tall (6′5″), have a fairly athletic build (I work out several times a week) and am reasonably intelligent (IQ 140). However, it was the assertiveness that was the lynchpin to meeting women. The trick was to simply start approaching people who caught my eye or who intrigued me for one reason or another. Now, if I had walked up to some woman and stared at my feet, said “Uhm, er… ahh” and whatever, I’d have gotten nowhere. Walk up and try to meet them. Nicely, confidently, calmly (sanely!). Make eye contact. Smile (not too much!). Be interested in them and if you aren’t, don’t bother even approaching. Quick note… bars SUCK for meeting people (unless you are looking for a one-night stand which is fine but will get very old and unsatisfying after a few years of being single. Oh, and be honest! Don’t try to lie or cajole someone into the sack… be a decent person and find a willing partner). You should try to meet people in places where you and they have a common interest or common interaction. Yeah, in my dating years I got rejected, dumped and ignored but that is probably more character building than anything. On a more positive note, the more people you meet and date (or just have a one-nighter with) the better you will know what YOU are looking for in a partner. You may find, as I did, that going for looks alone often ends up hollow and boring. Turns out, I have a strong preference for intelligence! I simply cannot tolerate being with a cute, but dumb, woman. In the end, I met my wife by being assertive and that was and is the best thing that has ever happened to me (well, right behind having the 2 cute little babies we made!)
Comment by ST — 5/9/2007 @ 12:18 pm
It’s nothing new man. This info has been out on the web for years.
This wisdom is straight from http://www.doubleyourdating.com.
Subscribe to the email list and you’ll see what I mean.
Comment by Jan-Willem Bats — 5/9/2007 @ 12:19 pm
No, you’ve got it all wrong.
Women do want nice guys. Society is right in that regard. Women want men to treat them nicely, to be gentlemen for them, etc. But what women want even more is the Alpha Male. They inherit this trait in their very genes. The problem is that the way society defines the Alpha Male these days is as a total asshole.
Many of the tactics that “nice guys” use to show that they are nice are horribly misguided. There are a billion queues a “nice guy” gives to show that he is not the Alpha Male. This leaves the woman disinterested, and possibly even confused as she might not be picking up on these queues.
Instead of befuddling every social encounter, show her that you are a “nice guy” “Alpha Male”. Instead of backing down from every confrontation, walk away from them. The difference here is subtle, and perhaps esoteric, but the former means a weak spine, and the latter indicates maturity. Instead of imploring her for attention, wait for her to give it to you. Meanwhile, always be noble, truthful, and open, and above else, always a gentlemen.
“nice guy” “Alpha Male” == gg
Comment by DeadWisdom — 5/9/2007 @ 12:24 pm
Not true. Women always like good-looking nice guys. If you’re not good-looking then you’d better work on some jokes.
Comment by anono — 5/9/2007 @ 12:32 pm
Dating sucks, women suck, complaining about the concatenation of those is most pathetic thing ever. These are not sentences people want to use to express their situation.
If you are ugly there is nothing you can do about it and women will never even give you the time of day. If you are nice and ugly, then they will talk to you and be your friend, while telling you about their boyfriends to politely say “get the fuck out of here, you have no chance.”
I am at a place similar to the beginning of what Scott has described. I’m graduating college in 2 weeks, and I haven’t had a date or any sort of meaningful contact with a woman in two years. YEARS. Talk about making people bitter and angry. I’m tired of complaining about how it sucks to be single, so I’m just not trying anymore. I spend my weekends programming, because unlike women at least a PHP interpreter can tell me what I’m doing wrong. The idea of living my life for myself is the only thing that gives me any comfort.
Being short makes meeting women incredibly difficult. Short and ugly are, in my experience, impossible to overcome. There is nothing worse than being the shortest guy at a party, women won’t even look at you. Despite being creepy and a complete asshole dirt bag (k-fed anybody?), the other guy at the party looks way better than you because he’s 6 inches taller than you. Height is just as important as confidence.
You can practice being more assertive and confidant, but if you’re short it’s like having a permanent handicap.
Can you solve the “nice guy paradox” by being confidant and still nice? Probably, but there are more factors to the issue than confidence if you ask me. You can be 100% right in your convictions, be confidant, and people will still ignore you and push you aside if you’re not tall enough or not attractive enough.
If you’re short or ugly it doesn’t matter how confidant you are. Period. You have a better chance of getting hit by lighting, winning the lottery, and curing cancer in the same day than you do getting a girl’s attention.
Comment by Mat — 5/9/2007 @ 12:43 pm
I have not actually read the responses from the men above, because I TOTALLY AGREE with the premise of this article. When nice replaces confidence, forthrightness and initiative, doormat definitely is the result. And, I think the same is true for men. Men like feminine, affectionate women who like to have men open the doors for them, accept and appreciate the gifts of compliments and attentive listening they offer, who are also confident, forthright and take initiative. How is anyone supposed to know what the other wants and likes unless the wants and likes are stated simply and clearly. Oh, yes. And everyone likes to have full attention of their mate/date when they are talking. A little, “That’s interesting, tell me more” to the one who is sharing always creates a nice connection and flow, rather than a battle for the floor, opening up the door for everyone’s brain to spill ideas.
Comment by Sandi — 5/9/2007 @ 1:15 pm
Dating isn’t rocket science:
Comment by Matt — 5/9/2007 @ 1:18 pm
ry this: http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/ng.shtml
it has been around for ages and has been a real eye-opener for me.
Comment by lars — 5/9/2007 @ 1:57 pm
Get your own act together and make sure your happiness doesnt revolve around women. Then jsut don’t give an F and be you. They will come and you will appreciate the good ones and they will appreciat you if your good to them.
shout out to Axl Rose.
Comment by Anthony — 5/9/2007 @ 2:02 pm
As a woman, I want a good man, not a nice-guy.
I distinguish between good & nice… good is loving me, being faithful, & taking care of his family; this is what is expected of a good husband… nice is getting me flowers or taking me out to dinner. My husband is a good husband in general, but he’s inconsistently nice to me, and it keeps me interested in him, because I don’t expect him to be nice to me.
I don’t expect anything for Valentines day or our Anniversary, why buy into that shit? But on some random Friday night, when my husband says “lets go out for dinner,” it means twice as much to me.
Doing what is expected of you isn’t exciting, and if let your woman expect you to do nice things, she’ll just walk all over you. (On the other hand, if you’re an asshole to her and she sticks around, she’s just desperate, and I’m sure that turns guys off.)
I think the problem is that many women expect too much from men; their fathers gave them everything, and they expect you too too. Many people are just generally selfish, but if they’re hot enough, some nice-guys put up with them because they think they can’t do better… I think it’s a perpetual cycle, you guys need to break & stop pandering to bitchy women.
The main advice I’d have is that guys have to be ok with being rejected… if being rejected doesn’t phase you, you can be your own man, be confident in yourself, & wait for the right woman to come along. You need to be ok with stepping up & asking out a chick, and not dreading she might shoot you down. (Women can smell fear.) You need to be happy with yourself before you can be happy with someone else. (If all that makes you happy is to get laid but never get married, you better be gorgeous and have no soul.) I need time to do my own thing, and so I need a guy who has his own things to do too. If my husband’s life centered around me, it would drive me nuts!
Oh, and this is definitely true: “if he can’t take care of himself he won’t be any good at taking care of me or any babies that come along.” Even if she’s completely self-sufficient, she’s thinking this.
So is this: Quick note… bars SUCK for meeting people…
Approach a women in the section of your interest at the book store, take a class of some sort (art, athletic, music), volunteer your time (that’s probably bonus points), etc.
I some have sympathy for you guys who are short and/or downright ugly… I’m sorry, but that’s just how the gene pool works… there are just as many lonely fat & ugly girls out there with lots of cats.
Comment by Kathaclysm — 5/9/2007 @ 2:16 pm
It’s really simple…
People only remember your most defining features. When a person says another person is “nice”, that means the person didn’t make an impression.. aka “Boring”.
It’s ok to be boring to some people, because that means you are interesting to other people, who will in turn be more interesting to you. That is unless you’re just looking for someone with a good body, but understand that sort of person will also be looking for the same.
Learn the difference between what people want and what they say they want.
Comment by Anon — 5/9/2007 @ 3:01 pm
[...] Nice Guy Paradox ‘Most guys exclusively using the “nice” approach are doormats, and many are so because that’s all they can…’ [...]
Pingback by Baron VC » links for 2007-05-09 — 5/9/2007 @ 3:21 pm
Nice guys don’t finish last, losers finish last. Just being ‘nice’ doesn’t make you a winner.
Comment by PENIX — 5/9/2007 @ 3:41 pm
[quote] Only once that foundation of primal respect is in place can the higher-order offerings such as kindness be appreciated. [/quote]
Hmm, I’m intrigued … how do I subscribe to your magazine ?
Comment by Bryan — 5/9/2007 @ 4:06 pm
It’s difficult to have this discussion logically from a vantage point of “How can I get women?” The base paradox isn’t that women want nice men who are masculine, it’s that men are more successful at getting women when they don’t want them.
It’s more logical to recognize that women won’t make men happy, and that men should stop trying to get them at all (whether by being nice, by being masculine, or by trying to trick women into thinking they’re one of either) as a path to their own fulfillment.
Learning the rules of nature is important, but the implementation of the rules changes with circumstances and events. What works now is based on similar (though flexible) principles to what worked in the cave, but the application may look entirely different because we aren’t in the cave anymore.
Comment by sleeper — 5/9/2007 @ 4:39 pm
The thing is, getting a women and getting a GOOD women are two totally different things and the only way your going to get a good one is by being yourself and giving people that have not earned your respect ZERO.
Comment by Jay Dee — 5/9/2007 @ 4:43 pm
You’re half wrong. Why? Because not even the physical aspect is as important as that masculine aspect. You will find a million examples of okay looking guys with gorgeous girls who have the bravado, confidence, and masculinity of a handsome men. It’s the same effect.
Comment by Smarmy — 5/9/2007 @ 4:43 pm
I am 19 years old and am a Software Engineer for a small Internet2 firm. I as many males at a young age experimented with this Dating thing that we were all supposed to do. To this day I believe that becoming involved with women was the worst decision of my life. Ill spare you the details and cut straight to the chase. Since I was 16 I have avoided all female contact and refuse to be in social situations that involve women. Since I made this decision the quality of my life has improved dramatically. Most of you so called “adults” would simply pass off anything that I say as ignorant bullshit but from my personal experience women are a waste of time, mental energy, money, and attention. Guys if you want to suffer for the rest of your lives then follow those urges and impulses that are simply CHEMICAL REACTIONS in your brains. If you want to have a life that your proud and happy about when you look back on it on your death bed then completely ignore women and move on to something better.
Comment by James Morgan — 5/9/2007 @ 4:47 pm
Rules to Attract women.
1)Flashiness 2)Make it look like its an opportunity to go out with you. 3)To be a Stud, all you have to do is act like one!
Special Rules to special kind of women….(Ones you can get laid with, real quick) 1) Buy them gifts, treat them with disrespect. 2) Bullshit a lot! 3) Act like you are too busy in life and that you are making a big sacrifise by spending time with her. Dont tell her that! 4)All this messages should be conveyed very subtely. 5) Make it look like there are a lot of women who want to get lucky with you!
Comment by Stud — 5/9/2007 @ 5:07 pm
Really what women want is to chase after a man but they never get the chance. Most guys are so quick to try to give a woman everything she wants (or think they want) that she never gets a chance to have some fun. This is the nice guy you are describing. So quick to tell her everything about himself, talk to her for as long as she wants, suffocate her in compliments etc.. That doesnt sound like a genuinely nice guy, sounds like an asshole with no self respect who will try to fake his way into a womans pants.
So its really not about how you look, how much money you have, what car you drive (i dont even own a car haha). None of that matters and its not the point. The point is, women want a challenge, they want to be the ones pursuing for once in their life. They want a man who is not always available, where all the details about his character is not known. How interesting is someone if you already know everything about them?
You can be much more effective if you see the dating process and dealing with women more like a sales cycle. I think the main issue with guys is they find this ONE WOMAN that gave them the time of day and perhaps a number, then they put all their efforts into that one woman. This is about the worst thing men can do. By limiting your options, just like in sales, you’ll exhaust yourself thinking “this is my one and only chance, this is the last sale I’ll ever make” when its totally not the case.
Just like in sales, you need to:
a) Work a lot of leads.
Get as many phone numbers as possible, take the initiative, say hello, and just fill up your cell phone with as many as you can get. If you aren’t desperate, you wont sound desperate, and you wont have to fake confidence (you cant fake confidence with women). Just man up for once in your life and approach a woman. The best part about this is that is gets easier and easer as you go along.
b) Asking questions or taking action that helps you judge how interested they are in you.
Why continue to call a client to see if they want to buy when you know they don’t have the money or its not a good fit? Same with women. Its so sad to see men chase after this one woman when there is no interest there. A wise man once told me “whoever has the least amount of interest in a relationship, business or otherwise, wins.”
So, I’ll to you from experience, being a nice guy isn’t the issue. I’m one of the nicest guys thats out there, and women are all over me because I ask the questions, I do the interviewing, I do the picking and choosing. I let them talk and I judge for myself if this woman is right for me.
Another wise man once said “Don’t forget, women get rejected too!”
Comment by haunts — 5/9/2007 @ 5:09 pm
Boys and girls, you are animals, part of nature. You only have one life to live. The smart thing to do is figure out as much about the game that nature plays: why you are are wired the way you are.
It all comes down to passing on your genes. You are a machine programmed to do this. It’s sad but true that a chicken is an egg’s way of making another egg. Perfectly logical. The eggs knows nothing about it. It’s just how it is. Good genes get selected for, bad ones don’t.
So, this is why guys are not naturally faithful. 5 mins work and he can reproduce. A woman, on the other hand, makes a commitment of years when she has a kid. It’s in her interest to have a nice guy who is not wife beater, who brings home the bacon and who is a sensitive man who likes to her flowers and all that stuff. But… a sneaky mating with a dominant male may endow her with a genetically fitter kid. It’s why women cheat and why it happens mostly at a their most fertile time of the month.
It’s why in many hospitals the blood group of the baby is not advertised on the little clipboard by the cot. 10% of babies are not born to the fathers they’re supposed to be the offspring of.
So, there you have it. Good old biological programming. If you don’t believe it Google the book Sperm Wars and read it.
Comment by The Sperminator — 5/9/2007 @ 5:09 pm
Umm, I am always annoyed when people say that men try to be nice, because they have been told that is what women want.
You know some men are NICE because heck they are actually NICE people. And believe that people should be treated with respect and kindness. In fact if your only being nice to attract women, thats not really being nice at all, that is just looking out for you own interests.
Comment by Bri Guy — 5/9/2007 @ 5:15 pm
Another woman’s opinion:
This article is absolutely right. It’s being nice when you have other moves you could possibly make that shows us your true character, and having moral depth and brains are the things most intelligent women will be attracted to.
Note that I did not say that these are the things that BEAUTIFUL women are attracted to. I’m not saying that being beautiful and being smart are mutually exclusive, but if you think about it statistically (I won’t go into details. I’m sure everyone here can do their own math), it’s improbable. The exceptions are: If women are smart, they are often also beautiful because they have noticed that being perceived as attractive has its advantages.
So, it’s all a very shallow game. Re: Mat’s comment that women only like tall, good-looking men: You know what? Men only like thin, good-looking women. It’s called sex appeal. You feel it — why shouldn’t we?
Comment by Andrea — 5/9/2007 @ 6:00 pm
I dunno about nice, or intelligence or sense of humour etc but I do know that my wife married me ‘ cos I cut up the bodies of my victims in the way she likes - she cooks em up and salts ‘em in barrels and well, we work together well, and that suits our passions for the things we love to do together. Take that away and, well, I dunno what’s there really…
Comment by Badcop666 — 5/9/2007 @ 8:52 pm
I’ve learned some great things from this thread:
How to pronounce Nietzsche.
“Synergy of the marketecture” is my new favorite phrase.
On a more serious note — I totally disagree that most people know or somehow believe this:
“that women like ‘nice’ guys”
Maybe it’s just I’ve lived in a city with Tom Leykis on the airwaves for the past several years, and have been exposed to a different peer group, but the revelation that women do not fawn over nice guys is not new for many.
Sure, they don’t like to be beat up by abusive partners, but it doesn’t mean you have to fawn over them and worship their every action.
Now, knowing they do not necessarily like nice guys; and still being one (for whatever reason) are two totally different stories.
Another thought always crosses to mind (which can be applied equally to men & women) and was echoed by earlier commenters:
(and I could give myself the same advice too, minus the Sex in the City… :))
Comment by S. Braford — 5/9/2007 @ 9:10 pm
As a female, this is completely true. Of course women want nice guys, but doormats? That’s a different story. And no, the two aren’t interchangable.
Comment by Aubrey — 5/9/2007 @ 9:12 pm
Women also have this thing about “winning men.” i.e. stealing a man from another woman.
I was single for a long period, once, and then, I got lucky somehow, and found myself with a very nice girl. 4 months later, I fell in love with her, and as soon as I let that be known, I had girls- whom I wouldn’t have had a chance with when I was single- come up and flirt with me or do something to get my attention. and you know what, I was stupid enough to fall for it. I was. dumped my girlfriend went out with 2 or 3 of those girls, realized they had nothing I wanted (and that they also didn’t want me anymore cause I was single), and asked my girlfriend to take me back.
that was about a year ago. needless to say, I’m single right now. hehehehe…
Comment by Jesse — 5/9/2007 @ 9:35 pm
Daniel Miessler;
I love the way you automatically assumed my being ‘hurt’ or ‘frustrated’ when all I really was at the time was annoyed. How very condescending, and how very wrong. And that line about ‘learning the rules’ and ‘winning’ instead of complaining about the rules - obviously a polite way of implying men are generally ignorant, whining losers. This is exactly the kind of garbage I learned to ignore as a teenager, these silly word games that so many women indulge in.
What I was proposing was men making their OWN rules, and structuring their lives so that they automatically ‘win’ by refusing to play a losing game. There’s nothing ‘hurt’ or ‘frustrated’ about that, it’s simply good sense. And judging by my successful marriage, it WORKS. I still occasionally call bullshit on my wife’s stupid mind games. I refuse to accept the incorrect premises uses to convince me to do things like interact with her idiot mother. I’ve learned to instantly identify which questions are actually traps to try to make me feel guilty. And ALL of this is based on focusing on myself as the primary cause of my own happiness, and relegating women ( including my own wife ) to a secondary status.
Guys, it’s not about being a ‘nice guy’ or not. It’s about FOCUS. My friends, male and female alike, refer to me as a ‘nice guy’, and my wife respects me because she understands where she stands - an equal, with no special methods for manipulating me. Focus on yourselves men. It’s called rational self interest, and it makes perfect sense.
Comment by Scott — 5/9/2007 @ 10:44 pm
Scott, I don’t feel I was being condescending at all by saying that men get hurt and frustrated by this constant struggle that you dealt with. If you read above you can find many of them that fit that mold perfectly. I can assure you I didn’t mean to offend.
I understand you’re saying to focus on yourself and things will improve, but there’s a fine line between doing that and pulling a “I don’t need them anyway!” tantrum that results in nothing but unhealthiness. For the majority of people trying to do this they DO want women still; they’re just trying to convince themselves they don’t.
Women do it too — a lot.
So your situation may have been healthy, and it obviously worked out for you; I’m just saying that we have to be careful when we deny what it is we want and need. We have to be VERY self-aware to be able to pull it off in an honest way. Anything less and we’re just kidding ourselves, likely with negative consequences.
Comment by Daniel Miessler — 5/9/2007 @ 10:53 pm
This is a bull shit posting.
I don’t want a woman who I have had to “capture” with bogus stereotypical male behavior. This implies that I have to be something besides my authentic self in order “to ge the girl.” Screw that. It is a lie.
Moreover, any woman who needs to be “captured” has a head full of stereo types and bogus culture anyway. Bound to become a problem for a genuine nice guy.
If they need to be “captured” with stereotypical male stuff then they don’t deserve a nice guy. Instead, they should just relax and enjoy being shit on for the balance of the relationships that they fall into, watch a few more TV shows, read a few more beauty magazines and go to a few more bars and macho events where all the “real men” hang out.
Comment by Nope — 5/9/2007 @ 10:56 pm
Good luck to you, sir. And with that gravity thing, too.
Comment by Daniel Miessler — 5/9/2007 @ 10:59 pm
The Nice Guy Paradox [Solved]…
Most guys know about the nice guy paradox. It’s where they’ve been told since they were young — both by women and by society in general — that women like “nice” guys. And because they’ve been told this over and over, most guys grow up try…
Trackback by astigg.com — 5/9/2007 @ 11:23 pm
You hit a big nail here, Daniel.
I humbly suggest you visit http://www.steelballs.com. You’ll find your views are really true.
Best
Fernando
Comment by Fernando — 5/9/2007 @ 11:37 pm
The 50/50 Rule. This is just my observation but i found it to be true all of the time. True love would be 50/50, but that is hardly ever the case. Usually one person in a relationship has the upper hand, meaning that one person likes the other more than the other likes them. Be it 80/20 or 51/49, its very rare that a relationship ends up 50/50. The sad truth is that the one who likes the other more, is also the one that has the lower hand, and thats usually the nice guy. The flip side is that the person who likes the other less, although they have the upper hand, they dont have the lust, or love, or whatever you want to call it that the other person has. Which in turn means they dont tend to be as “nice” because why should they, what benefit would that be to them. A bigger benefit would be for them to give orders, make demands, act like a jerk or a bitch, in order to force the more submissive partner to make them happy. In turn the submissive partner responds in kind thinking that by making their partner happy that they will in turn be happy. In fact over the long term this fails for both partners. I think the best you can do is first and foremost make yourself happy and hope that your partner is happy by your actions. If not. then you have the wrong partner. Pretty simple huh? Unfortunalty this isnt realistic, so your choice has to be, do you want to be the dominent or submisive partner. If you are the dominent one, you’ll get your way about all the time, but never experience the actual attraction of a relationship. If you are the submissive one, you’ll be attacted, but have no control over your life. But once in a great while, there is that 50/50 relationsihp. Shoot for that. In the mean time I suggest you make yourself happy and see who follows you. LWR
Comment by Way — 5/9/2007 @ 11:55 pm
Sorry Daniel, but actually no, there isn’t a “fine line” between focusing on our own values and throwing a tantrum. If you can’t tell the difference, that’s fine, but it should be obvious to any normal adult. Implying that it’s hard for men to differentiate between those things merely spreads the idea that men are generally immature -> more word games. And concentrating on our obtainable goals is NOT denying that women are perceived as a value to men. However, there’s nothing mysterious or terribly difficult about a simple cost/benefit analysis.
You want to talk about what is and isn’t healthy? How about wasting countless hours and tons of money pursuing a goal that has no particular benefit and lots of drawbacks? Too many men have been suckered into chasing after a relationship with a woman simply because so many of our social cues and signals have been left unquestioned. I make it a point to call bullshit on this wherever I see it.
Again, it’s not about being a ‘nice guy’ or not. It’s about consciously and rationally choosing our goals based on what really makes us happy. Sure, women are usually on the list. The right woman might even make the top ten, or even number one. But that shouldn’t change the way the list is made or keep us from revising the list any time we want.
Comment by Scott — 5/10/2007 @ 12:10 am
“To look nicely” will be the doormat for dating woman.
But “to be nice” is different with “acting to be nice”. Everything will be much easier and comfortable TO BE YOURSELF.
Do the things spontaneously. “To be nice” with somebody is not for attracting people, to be a true self without pretending and you will attract the RIGHT ONE. You will be nice to that person spontaneously if you love that person, it is not about bending your head and to beg for something.
Comment by joyce — 5/10/2007 @ 2:26 am
[...] The Nice Guy Paradox. I can attest that following the “nice guy” approach with the ladies guarantees you lame-duck, also ran status. Tactically is the weakest of sauces. Now that we’ve all got PHDs in what doesn’t work, somebody give us a plan B that works short of becoming some kind of megalomania Marlboro Man. [...]
Pingback by falconsox.com » Blog Archive » Put your posts up slowly… and no funny biz! — 5/10/2007 @ 12:02 pm
I think you’re 90% of the way there Daniel. There is a deep truth here, and IMO some of the comments pretty much hit on it, although I don’t know that they’re realizing it. Examine our myths, fairy tales — the ones that have endured the longest and are the most popular …with /children/. Boys want to be (cliche alert) the dragon-slaying knight that saves the beautiful damsel in distress. Girls want to be the beautiful princesses that the dashing knight is willing to risk everything to save.
There are great profound truths in these archetypes. In short, men are hardwired for three things: adventure, battle, and a beauty. When a man makes the pursuit of a woman his adventure, the pursuit seems exciting and rewarding, but if/when he ever “catches” his beauty they both quickly realize that things are ..boring. We all know where these relationships go.
I, too, have similar stories to some of the other guys that have commented. In short, it wasn’t until I stopped chasing females that I started having real success with them — and I dated plenty before then, some relationships that lasted for quite a while. The idea that finally clicked in my mind is this one: “your not ready to meet you future spouse until your ready to be single for the rest of your life.” That phrase may parse a bit oddly, but the point is that until you are a rich enough (and I don’t mean monetarily), self-sufficient enough, all-around healthy individual, you’re not READY to be the one-half of a relationship that you’re required to be for that relationship to be a healthy, balanced one. Whether this means being a “nice” guy or not isn’t really at the heart of it — an all-around healthy guy (mentally, socially, emotionally, etc) is in all likelihood going to considered a “nice” guy. But he’ll also embody those male characteristics that the female commenters on here have discussed.
So, guys: stop chasing after the women. Go chase after something else: a passion for rock climbing, or entrepreneurship, or writing, or whatever. Get involved in an intellectual hobby. Get involved in a physical hobby. Figure out where you are in terms of spirituality. Become a well-rounded, balanced person, and meeting the “right” kind of women — or even The Right One — will happen naturally, when it’s supposed to.
Comment by Morris — 5/10/2007 @ 12:24 pm
Daniel:
Amen Brother! Been there, done that, got the scars, I mean Tshirt…
Comment by Steve — 5/10/2007 @ 5:10 pm
Oh bullshit!
Comment by SuzyQ — 5/13/2007 @ 6:38 pm
I sort of agree with everything now that it’s been written down but I never have thought about it the way it is being discussed here.
There is an element of ‘nature taking it’s course’ to “hooking up” that I’ve always tried to just “go with” and it removed all of the stress from the situation.
I’ve found that I either ‘hit it off’ with somebody or I don’t, and when I do it’s often great. I never went out looking for anything in particular although if I saw somebody that I found attractive I probably made some type of move.
I like the idea of ‘meeting women’ more than “chasing women.” If you move too quickly sometimes you waste a lot of time trying to chase someone you really don’t like as a person.
There are millions of beautiful people out there. It isn’t hard to meet someone naturally if you just be yourself.
Comment by Jason Sato — 5/16/2007 @ 7:33 am
Hello, everybody…
I hope, you know that awesome girl you always wanted. You tried everything to get her (even being nice?) and yet… she dates the jerk.
Maybe you also know that when you are ‘a nice guy’ you attract the girls you do not want. And lets face it: those are ‘nice girls’.
I think the explanation about the Paradox is true. But, lets not say that all women are the same. And I think the paradox applies to both genders.
I think that dating/mating is about interaction. Give her what she wants but don’t throw it in her face. Let her suffer. She has to want it. Let her come and get it. You have to tease her. Seduction is a mental affair. If you cannot push her buttons, forget it. You have to make her day. This means you don’t have to be always nice. ;)
Right girls?
Comment by Marc N. — 5/16/2007 @ 12:04 pm
Kind of a late comment. Oh well.
I don’t think I’ve ever met a person who genuinely wanted to be with someone who treated he or she poorly. I think there are a lot of other variables. A person who is not comfortable with themselves, for example, may latch on to a partner because they feel there are no other options; the whole “I don’t want to spend my life alone/nobody else will want me, so it’s better than nothing” mentality. Others simply do not care. They are only looking for sex, money, status, or whatever else to fill an empty gap they have in their life. Temporarily, at least.
I believe that a healthy woman who is looking for a relationship tends to shoot for a man whom she thinks she is on par with. I believe men are generally the same. Someone with similar goals, compatible interests and personality, lifestyle, etc. Sometimes this plays into appearance as well, although not always. I know some very attractive men who aren’t overly concerned with a girl’s physical beauty; I also know some gorgeous girls that would settle for an average-looking guy any day, as long as they have great chemistry.
Everyone wants to be treated first and foremost with respect. “Nice” is a very general term. Nice can mean courteous. Nice can mean buying someone expensive cars and flowers and chocolates. Being “nice” isn’t so much important; being honest, respectful, compassionate, friendly, confident - those, in my opinion, are attractive qualities. I think a lot of people get too wrapped up in specifics as well. I’m an artist, I’m a writer. At 15, I used to think I’d love to date someone similar. Someone “insightful” and “creative”. I will be 20 this year, and I have yet to date an artist or a writer. My most serious relationship was with a hilareous gamer. I am single now, and tomorrow I could meet a football player who loves to cook and play bingo. He might be the most interesting person I’ve ever met. Limiting yourself does no good.
Comment by Christen — 5/19/2007 @ 1:08 am
Hey i like the concept good thinking batman
Comment by Alec — 5/26/2007 @ 5:41 am
I see some very interesting comments about this topic, all of them genuine (except the one about cutting people up I hope), which is what we should all try to be. I also see that a lot of them repeat themselves or the topic. This is an issue that is centuries old, but what it comes down to is being a genuine human being who is not afraid to be honest with other people or themselves. Honesty is not only about telling the truth but knowing who you really are and accepting it. If you don’t accept it then change it. If something is not working for you then try something else. This is applicable for all humans. Men and women are different, as is every individual so don’t expect people to adhere to the policies you have created for yourself because they won’t. Perhaps I am repeating all of these very valid points with different words, but I believe (notice the I) that these are the best known methods in understanding each other as men, women, and human animals.
Comment by Natalie — 5/27/2007 @ 2:16 pm
Girls sometimes are to be careful not all who seem to be nice guys are truly nice.One would be a lamb in a good mood and rarely get annoyed but when they on their bad side there lions. They could be nice when you know them but when you ove in together you get to know their other side.
Comment by Trigo — 6/19/2007 @ 12:12 am
[...] say that they want someone “nice.” They usually end up with someone not that nice. This blog entry explains what they meant by someone [...]
Pingback by Siesta… — 7/22/2007 @ 6:13 am
[...] More about the “Nice Guy Paradox”. This entry was posted on Monday, July 30th, 2007 at 3:52 am and is filed under Saps, Losers. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site. [...]
Pingback by Group Kick » Blog Archive » Nice Guys Don’t Finish Last: They’re Too Pathetic to Race — 7/30/2007 @ 5:52 am
> Don’t fight the rules; to do so is as pointless as picketing gravity or boycotting inertia.
ehh, theoretically it should be easier to overcome this. while gravity and inertia are both physical laws, this phenomenon is the result of self-organizing behavior, and such would be slightly easier to change (but still not easy at all :p)
Comment by mind — 7/30/2007 @ 11:46 am
[...] http://dmiessler.com/blogarchive/the-nice-guy-paradox-solved [...]
Pingback by Monkey Attack » The Nice Guy Paradox [Solved] — 7/30/2007 @ 2:03 pm
I’ve always found a big part of it is also that women don’t know what they want in the first place, and in fact go on instincts they don’t even understand. (men do this too, I’m not trying to be sexist, just going with the theme of the article) And alot of the time the instincts ARE as you described them, but they themselves don’t even realise that their mind is working in such ways. When they meet someone new their mind is a whir with “I want my life to be like this ideal fairyland that will never exist with this man or any man”, and then that doesn’t happen, they meet someone else and already start concoting a new set of fantasies. “No, wait, I prefer this other ideal that will never exist”. Pop music and movie’s ideas of love don’t help people any either. Add all this, your articles’ points, and the fact that 99% of the population is pretty much certifiably retarded and you’ve got a recipe for alot of rejected and lonely people. Or people that are together but miserable despite a facade they may put forth for public appearance, or that exists out of pure ignorance. People believe certain things MUST happen for them to be happy. Then those things happen and they still feel empty, and they don’t understand why. Or they never happen and they spend their lives searching for what does not exist.
Comment by Phil — 7/30/2007 @ 2:08 pm
an old craigslist post:-
Why nice guys SUCK Date: 2006-09-10, 9:19PM EDT
This is a long rant, so bear with me or hit your back button. I’m frustrated and in no mood for your shit either, so if you don’t want to read it, well…
So I’m dating a nice guy now and it SUCKS. No other way to explain it, it just SUCKS. He’s no challenge. He agrees with everything I say. He’s got it all though - a decent job, a nice house, no kids, no psycho ex-wives, and he’s tall and cute. Anyone ever seen that Friends episode when Alec Baldwin played Phoebe’s boyfriend?? YEAH, my boyfriend is THAT nice. He’s just too fucking nice. Nice is boring. I’ve never heard him raise his voice. He’s never aggressive. He has no edge. He won’t even drive over the speed limit and that fucking annoys the shit out of me, yet I sit in the passenger seat and keep my mouth shut… watching everyone whiz by us.
And don’t get me started on the sex. Oh, excuse me… making love. After he cums (note I didn’t mention anything about ME cumming), he rolls over and says “Oh, that was nice” with a little sigh. I KID YOU NOT, he says it EVERY TIME and then he sighs like he has just woken from a refreshing nap. I finally got so tired of missionary and him looking lovingly into my eyes and smiling as he came, that I threw him down on the couch one night and mounted him. At first he was terrified - yes, TERRIFIED. He thought something had possessed me. And it HAD — it was sheer MADNESS. I fucked the shit out of him that night. And then he sighed and said “Oh, that was nice”.
Now that we had the cowgirl position conquered (always with that sigh afterwards), it was time to move on to doggie. His ex-girlfriend never did doggie (hmmm… maybe there’s a “nice” ex-girlfriend to blame for his timid niceness?? That bitch…). Anyway, I digress. I tell him I want him to fuck me from behind. Yes, I used the word “fuck” and I didn’t care what he thought about it. He gets behind me and enters me, and damned if he didn’t say “OH, THIS IS NICE” !!! Are there any 35 y/o men out there that haven’t smacked a woman’s ass when doing her doggie?? YES, and he’s my boyfriend!
Tonight during sex, I think I’m gonna tell him to stick his finger in my ass when I’m riding him. THAT should be interesting.
So for the nice guys out there, my advice is this: It’s great that you’re nice (to an extent), but have some backbone. Don’t be a spine donor all your life. When your girl is out of line, say something. Don’t let her walk all over you. Occasionally, be a “bad” boy (being bad doesn’t translate to abusive or criminal). Say “No” to her sometimes. Raise your voice and be heard. Say something dirty/sexy to her occasionally. Drink a few too many beers and piss out in public. Smack her ass. Don’t ever use the word NICE to describe things, especially sex (okay, that may be a personal pet peeve). Have an interest in at LEAST one sport (or pretend to). Drive 5-10 miles over the speed limit once in awhile. Run an old lady off the road just for kicks (yeah, I’m kidding about this one… just ride her bumper for a few miles). Be aggressive during sex. Take off those damn white socks and Jesus sandals. Grow a goatee for a few weeks. Shave your balls. Stray from your routine and shake things up.
BE A MAN FOR GOD’S SAKE… and the women will fall at your feet.
Whew… THAT FELT NICE.
Comment by Lee — 7/30/2007 @ 3:37 pm
It’s not about being nice or not, this is about being real or a fake. People in general, not only women, tend to get nervous with people that are trying to be nice all the time, similar to people that are psychotic and rude. Best way is to be real and human, to disagree or be angry from time to time, people will have respect for you then. As for women specific, they like to be concurred, that is nature, but be original and real and use your imagination on what way to do that.
Comment by nobody — 7/30/2007 @ 6:39 pm
[...] guy thinks he’s figured out why nice guys never win in the dating [...]
Pingback by Blogblah!!! » Blog Archive » Paradox “solved” — 7/30/2007 @ 7:35 pm
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Pingback by And Remember Kids, Treating Women Like Shit Turns Them On : SKIRMISHER — 7/30/2007 @ 8:28 pm
“Feminized” or “nice” guys simply have to steer clear of the Jocks and find a sub-culture or group of friends where the females think Jocks are gross. Usually those girls are prettier and smarter too.
Comment by bob — 7/30/2007 @ 8:51 pm
It is simple. Women lie. I think they are conditioned to do it. Only two qualities matter to a woman: looks and money, and/or status. If you are short in the looks department, you better be packing one of the other two qualities. Sense of humor is meaningless. Being nice is the kiss of death. I have been told my whole life how witty, honest, nice, and smart I am. I am proud of these qualities. I would not trade them in for anything. That being said, the dolt with the washboard abs is the one getting laid. He can be border-line retarded, it doesn’t matter. That is the way of the world.
Comment by hunior89 — 7/30/2007 @ 10:45 pm
[...] read more | digg story [...]
Pingback by The Real Reason Women Don’t Like “Nice” Guys « theBoss — 7/31/2007 @ 3:24 am
Its true. In my personal experience, I have failed to attract women when being a ‘nice guy’. However, when being total macho, show-off, jerk, I seem to get results.
Comment by E — 7/31/2007 @ 4:16 am
Yawn! Next topic please
Comment by EveryMachoMan — 7/31/2007 @ 4:34 am
Epic fail. But do wimin lieks tha mudkipz?
Comment by Anonymous — 7/31/2007 @ 8:55 am
HAH, I thought men were supposed to treat women as equals? Now in order to attract women we must be a “man’s man”. “everything but the bop on the head eh Marisol”? does that include treating women like property?
I believe that women deserve all the rights, respect, and equality that they have in America today, what frustrates me is that a man who does this apparently does not have the caveman instinct to attract a mate. WHAT DO WOMEN WANT? A CAVEMAN OR A MODERN EAQUALIST?! Hah, or perhaps some mixing of the two? A caveman in bed but a modern equalist when the babies diapers need changing?
Comment by Luke Bergen — 7/31/2007 @ 8:56 am
You people are looking far too deep into this.
If you are a short ugly guy, unless you have some glaring talents or wonderful abilities, go look for some short ugly women to hook up with! Don’t sit around wasting your time pining over beautiful women who would just dick you over anyway.
And girls do like nice guys - Confident, semi-attractive, intelligent, nice guys.
This whole “nice guy syndrome” is spawned from dorky idiots with no self confidence who think just because they are nice, entitles them to a beautiful woman. So they perpetually bomb out with the ladies, and then complain about it on the internet and such. Lower the bar for yourself, or improve yourself; it’s that simple.
Comment by Justin — 7/31/2007 @ 9:08 am
it’s even simpler. Women dont want jerks. Women want emotionally courageous men. The cheerleaders and the smart geek girls. They both, as being human, want to be treated with resepect and equally as a peer.
The simple rule: Do not let a woman get away with bullshit. If she is acting XYZ and you are nice to her, you are just not making it thru a filter.. and you are dismissed as a pussy man who is too scared to stand up for himself. Call a girl on her bullshit, and that IS being nice. Letting a girl walk all over you being nice, is being an asshole to yourself and a lier to her. Its dishonest. Sometimes Honesty takes courage and can be risky.
Comment by adam — 7/31/2007 @ 10:05 am
Women are chemically attracted to testosterone. They can smell it subliminally. Men with a lot of testosterone tend to be less ‘nice’ and meek. So go to the gym and lift some weights, or do some sort of exercise that gets your blood pumping, since this increases your testosterone level. Plus you get the added bonus of looking better and living a longer healthier life.
Comment by dylan — 7/31/2007 @ 10:10 am
Agreed. Most women can tell a mile away when she sees a desperate weak man being nice only to attain her interest. We don’t like that we know that strategy derived from low-confidence men who are just looking for female companionship out of desperation. Being a man has nothing to do with being a complete jerk, or a dysfunctional hardass. It means being masculine, standing your ground, not being a pussy and still being respectful. Women love a man who has it together (natural confidence. Please don’t mistake confidence for being an asshole). Unfortunately, alot of guys who mask their true self with this “nice guy” bullshit end up realizing it doesn’t pay to be someone else, and end up an asshole bitter at women instead. I think WAY too much emphasis is placed on men either being “nice guy pussies” or “dominant assholes” when I know there are plenty of you who are in the middle. Practicality is the way to go.
Comment by Monica — 7/31/2007 @ 10:12 am
This is a no-brainer; of course women prefer men who have the potential to be good providers and protectors. That behavior is hard-wired into the female primate psyche.
Comment by jonolan — 7/31/2007 @ 10:14 am
Absolutely correct. This was most eloquently said first — and by a woman — on a site called “Heartless Bitches International:
heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys.shtml
Comment by Briani Reich — 7/31/2007 @ 10:17 am
No no no no no no no no no no no no no. All of you are thinking WAY too hard about this. Women are attracted to confident men. Period. If you’re not confident, fake it.
Comment by Brian — 7/31/2007 @ 10:18 am
Women look for protector trait; but also are attracted to those who are fun to be with. Having said that, Don Juan character is totally different - inducing women to take pity on them. That has given much higher results.
Comment by passerby — 7/31/2007 @ 10:25 am
Interesting analysis. Being a woman who has a mind of her own and lots of opinions, I have always found this dichotomy interesting. In my love history, I found the weak ‘nice’ men uninteresting, but when a man is strong but also kind and nice then I fell in love with him. My husband is a masculine man but who is also kind and treat me very well. But God help me if I tried to be a bitch, because he won’t put up with crap from me.
Binh Zientek http://www.qualitylondonapartments.co.uk http://www.qualitycityapartments.com
Comment by Binh Zientek — 7/31/2007 @ 10:31 am
Women are just down right stupid fuxking creatures. Damn hoes!!! Leeches is all they are… your better off being gay in this day in age; as a woman will take a man for all he is worth.
Comment by Someone — 7/31/2007 @ 10:33 am
All tautologies are true!
Comment by J — 7/31/2007 @ 10:37 am
[...] read more | digg story [...]
Pingback by Omar Dixon: Me, My Life and I. » The Real Reason Women Don’t Like “Nice” Guys — 7/31/2007 @ 10:42 am
On the surface, these things are generally true, but there are deeper truths going on here. A great read on this topic is David Deida - Way of the Superior Man http://www.amazon.com/Way-Superior-Man-Spiritual-Challenges/dp/1889762105
Deida calls upon ancient hindu and taoist wisdom and generally breaks down what is at the root of ‘confidence’ and the masculine/feminine dynamic.
go to the source fellas, but until then, fake it till you make it.
Comment by casey — 7/31/2007 @ 10:44 am
Everybody is using everybody. It’s no easier being gay, believe me. The grass is not greener on this side. Everybody lies, cheats… Dog eat dog…
Comment by Hmm — 7/31/2007 @ 10:44 am
I agree nearly completely with “hunior89’s” comment in paragraph 74 and with “Luke Bergen” in paragraph 79. ok now that thats out of the way……Well I’m a 19yr old college student with many relationships(be it friends or dating or dating-friends etc etc) with beautiful intelligent women and I am nice and don’t have an insane body(could use one lol) and I don’t even tan. And I’ve found that women who think they are the top of the “food chain” lie a lot, and they mislead you to no end. However there are nice girls that look great/incredible who just don’t know it, and they are just as great to be around as the amazingly beautiful girls. And peers don’t lower your “bar”…just stop getting “tunnel vision” and look around……..laters…..checkout my myspace(myspace.com/lolthisspace) if you want.
Comment by Jerry — 7/31/2007 @ 11:18 am
Damn this topic is interesting. Well all I have to say from what I’ve seen so far is that girls don’t care about looks size or whatever you wanna call it. I am 6′0 tall, skinny around 160 lbs and Hispanic English second language. I think they care about the benefits when they start dating a guy. I don’t personally think that their interest is based on what the guy can provide them instead, and I am not saying is money. I think is how the guy use the money to make her happy.I mean it is the same mythology when a person is looking for a new job. He/She wants to get benefits. So the point is the following. I don’t consider myself smart or anything like that, although all girls that I’ve dated so far think I am. I have my girlfriend since I entered High School(7 years so far)(and she is the most beautiful thing that happened to me :( eventhough we argue alot sometimes:().) I recently graduated from college and I am currently working in a good Co. My girl is about to finish her major as well and still I don’t see the appropriate time that I can say I am ready to get marry. So me, myself is just taking a break now because eventually I think the time is approaching and still cheating for me is not going clubbing on a night to a bar and get a chick. I rely on the fact that guys that go clubbing to get P****Y are the worst out there, and that if they rely on those places, mind as well their stage of mind is discrepancy insufficient to be a man.
I love the idea that guys and girls needs to date in their within age range (2 2). That’s how I do it. And it happen that for some reason I like girls that are smarter and more sufficient in terms of mentality than me. *Smarter
Also yes I’ve cheated on her, but guess what? I for some reason has managed to go back to her.
So let’s keep up the topic.
Comment by Manuel M — 7/31/2007 @ 11:24 am
i was the ‘nice guy’ for a long time, up until 2 years ago when all of a sudden it clearly occured to me what i was doing wrong and why, this article hit the nail on the head as far as im concerned
the strategy i found most powerfull with women is to do what people have told us in every sitcom and after school special since the dawn of time, ‘just be your self’ dont change your behavior just because your around a woman you are attracted to, treat her like a friend, not a friend you want to hug and share your feelings with and get all pathetic because you think thats what girls want,,, treat her like a friend you go out drinking with or play sports with or anything like that, tease her, be frank and blunt with her, make jokes, be confident and comfortable, talk about things that intrest you,,,, that is the ultimate for women, a man who is comfortable in his own skin and doesnt need to turn into a woman to feel comfortable with women
Comment by burk — 7/31/2007 @ 11:27 am
Here’s part of the problem. “Nice Guys” think there’s only 2 kinds of guy: The meek “Nice Guy” and “the Asshole”. That’s it. They see it as so black n white, they are destined to fail. The reason they see the other side as “the asshole” is because they hear women call those guys assholes when they have gotten in fights or been mistreated. Little nerd “Nice guy” then puts two and two together and figures “If girl complains he is an asshole, then Nice Guy must be what she wants”. WRONG!
“Nice guys” also for some fucked up reason think that assertiveness is equal to aggression–Which is just wrong. And besides, women want a leader. Few of them like to lead. It sounds sexist, but HEY NICE GUY, it’s OK! Most women like being taken care of and secured and for YOU the man to take the lead. That’s not sexism, it’s just the FACTS! So grow a spine, grow some balls, and take fucking charge!
Comment by Arby — 7/31/2007 @ 11:28 am
There is something that can help any nice guy, a lot of alcohol…
But there are some repercussion… check this http://www.wwwpd.org
Comment by Al Einstien — 7/31/2007 @ 11:36 am
This article states what I have held as truth for a logn time, but only regarding women who are insecure or unsure of what they want. Jenny pretty much summed up the way i feel as a whole in her two comments, and it’s nice to see there are females out there that actually hold similar views to my own.
Comment by Anthony — 7/31/2007 @ 12:01 pm
Female Opinion: This article describes my boyfriend! I’ve dated other guys who are complete assholes and ones that are totally nice guys. Both sucked. My current boyfriend has his own life and his own ambitions. Despite that, he treats me wonderfully. I adore him and I would never leave him OR take him for granted. This is the perfect way to be a “nice guy” guys!
Comment by Sarah — 7/31/2007 @ 12:09 pm
To be a nice guy, is a nice thing, guys seem to think that nice guys are taken advantage of, but have you ever thought that there may be a reason other than, you were too nice? Here are just a few things to think about… 1. She may not be a nice girl 2.Do you still maintain firmness in what is right and best for you, without being selfish (maintain your spine) 3. If you are not happy with yourself how can anyone else be happy with you? 4. Be direct about what you want, and know what you want (don’t be wishy-washy) 5. I read mentions of the appearance of the person; a strong personality (integrity, independence, and a since of direction) is more attractive to most women than appearances alone. Sure she may go for the hottie sometimes, but that works both ways…but in the end a real relationship can not live on appearance alone. 6. Just remember…being a nice guy does not equal being a push over, it means being a good friend and not taking advantage of someone, being there for them when they need you, not when they beckon you, and listening and actually understanding the person when they need someone to lean on.
I just want to say, I wish there were more nice people in the world, then those of us who try to be a nice person, wouldn’t second guess ourselves.
Comment by Suz — 7/31/2007 @ 12:28 pm
It’s funny, something similar occurred to me the other day, when a song came on the radio; ‘Lips of an Angel’
This is not the sort of music I listen to and the premise of the song bugs me (talking with an ex)but every time I hear that song; I think God Damn!-this guy has a sexy voice. And it dawned on me that, in particular, what I thought was sexy was the beginning of the song when he almost whispers.
I should also mention that is drives me crazy(in a bad way) when these guys in country music TRY to do a sexy whisper in music. I think they sound whiny and feminine.
I wondered why I kept thinking that -then realized, the difference was the guy in the ‘Lips’ song had a really gruff, masculine, crackly kind of voice and in the beginning it sounds like he’s going out of his way to sound gentle and kind but that he’s just SO masculine that it still comes out gruff.
The whiny, trying to be sexy, country music whisper, on the other hand, sounds like someone “trying” to get a girl turned on-which I can’t help but get annoyed by.
So there it is- we want gruff, ruff, tough, cave men who are very sweet and gentle to us(why else would they slay dragons?).
It is easy to find the former- very hard to find it combined with the latter and most of us(unfortunately) prefer to take our chances with the former hopping he’ll revel the latter-than to just settle for a “nice” guy. (luckily I did find a dragon slayer)
-Tasha
Comment by Tasha — 7/31/2007 @ 12:32 pm
As a sidenote, if you look at the behavior of chimps and Amazonian tribes, Greeks, and Romans, there is a common denominator between them all in history.
In the wild, a chimp patriarch is surrounded by women and children. If the wives go for another chimp, they are punished. The tribe is there to do the patriarchs bidding and have his children.
Post-pubertal chimps leave home and associate with other toughs, driven by newly surging hormones. Eventually they return to the tribe to challenge the patriarch. The patriarch ignores them at first but eventually he gets in a ferocious battle with the younger chimps, sometimes being chased off.
If the post pubertal chimps are victorious they kill all the children and leave the females untouched. Without children to suckle, the females are no longer tied to the patriarch.
When the mothers are no longer suckling the children, they regain interest in sex. This is because, while suckling, lactational amenorrhea takes away their interest in sex, making them available to the new males.
This is how the cocky, aggressive chimps ensure the propagation of their progeny and how the female chimps end up having their children.
Humans behave in this way too. In the Amazon live a people called the Yanomamo. They beat their wives; the women feel unloved unless they carry scars from their husbands. The men have two main interests, war and hunting.
They invade villages, kill all the children, and take the women as secondary wives.
Similarly, Western civilization has a history of these kinds of ‘barbarities’.
In 1625 Hugo Grotius cited the 137th psalm, which said, “Happy shall he be who takes and dashes your little ones against the rock.” as a norm for the practice of war. A common practice in the Old Testament and Europe in the 1600s. It ensures the dominance of one tribe over another.
The rape of the Sabine women is another example of humans acting like chimps. The Romans invited their neighbors and women over for dinner and proceeded to kill or chase away all the men and keep the women for themselves.
Another example: Helen of Troy, like an aquatic duck, triggered a fight called the Trojan War. Then she ran back to her men to get them involved as well. The Greeks took the women and left most of the children behind.
The hunger for sex leads to this kind of violence. It is a desire to populate the world with one’s own children. It’s the greed of genes.
So what does this have to do with the nice guy vs. bad guy question? Well if you agree that human males have a genetically dictated desire to win over women in whatever way possible and reproduce like chimps or Amazonian tribes or Greeks or Romans do, then it only makes sense that modern, civilized humans carry this genetically dictated impulse within as well. I don’t know maybe we’ve ‘evolved’ since then?
You can see how all the men in my examples were domineering to the extreme, barbaric to unconscionable levels though. This doesn’t fly in our modern civilization supposedly; yet you see it every day in the papers, behind closed doors—men going to the very same extremes for the same reasons as Romans, Greeks, Amazonians, and chimps.
Naturally most well-adjusted, modern, civilized people temper these ‘barbaric’ instincts to one degree or another with religious or philosophical ideas, out of necessity or to avoid punishment by the state; but it’s still there under the surface for both women and men, in my opinion.
You can’t live in close proximity to so many people of your own nationality or other nationalities while behaving like the men in these examples of course. It happens though. But we have laws and social norms in America. But it still plays out; just in more sophisticated or complex ways, with more subtlety and refine.
I think this is the biological reason why a woman is attracted to a man with at least some domineering qualities over a mostly submissive man.
I by no means am advocating any of the behavior practiced by the men in my examples, nor am I trying to demean women. I’m no social Darwinist or misogynist. I am merely pointing out that there is a parallel between human and animal behavior. Fortunately, as humans we have control over our instincts, we can choose what to do with them to some degree — ethics, morality, respect, the law, and higher things.
Comment by Alistar Bakler — 7/31/2007 @ 12:40 pm
Women will tell you they like guys that are smart and funny. What they won’t tell you is that jokes are much funnier coming from a good looking guy, and that making a bunch of money is the smartest thing you can do if you want to attract women.
Comment by Brian — 7/31/2007 @ 12:41 pm
Attraction is about more than being “nice,” plain and simple. Think of yourself as getting points - “nice” gets you some points, sure, but so does “attractive,” “positive,” “does that thing with his tongue,” “clean,” “likes what I like,” “smart,” etc.
And the list (and relative points for each item) is different for different women. Or we really would all be trying to date the same guy, which we’re not.
Comment by marisa — 7/31/2007 @ 12:57 pm
Ok girls opinion: First of all, I agree with Nope. Well, I mean, he has the right attitude. He shouldn’t have to go around playing games and pretending to be something he’s not in order to get a girl. No one should do that. I mean, that’s ok if you’re just trying to get laid. But for anything else…that’s the recipe for disaster.
Alot of the guys are here whining and moaning about how girls only want a certain kind of guy. You know what? I HATE all this stuff I am CONSTANTLY finding on the internet that tries to place the sexes in 2 separate categories. People are just people. I wish we’d all stop reading all of this “how to” crap and just get on with it, it’s messing everyone up.
You know girls have problems too. I didn’t get a date until I was 20! and then it was like a total turn-around, I had guys all over me. The kind of guys all the girls would want to be with. Just because my confidence was way up, and I was letting more people see my personality. So you see, it’s the exact same with girls. Unlike Jesse, though, I didn’t fall into the trap when all those guys would come onto me and stayed faithful to my then boyfriend!
Everybody has their faults, be it physical or otherwise. Some girls are a bit chubby. Some guys are short, whatever. But if you focus on your faults, and blame them for your problems in the dating world, THAT’S what’s going to cause you to struggle. Get out there and just be comfortable with being yourself.
As for the article, yes I admit there is a strong element of truth behind it. Yes, I want a nice guy. I don’t want an “alpha male” as some people have been saying. it’s attractive, yes. but i don’t want a guy i feel like i have to run after. I don’t want a guy “who’s high up enough on the social ladder to dump me at the drop of a hat but doesn’t” as someone said. i just want someone who’s comfortable with himself, and happy to be himself. someone who’s not just a “friend” but more like a “best friend”. not just someone who’s there to talk to and lean on, but someone who also relates to me and shares interests and who i can just generally have a great time with and share jokes with.
guys you’re only going to get that by being yourselves! and personally i think alot of us, at college age, are still figuring out what that is!
i think this has been a pretty long, badly structured rant. apologies.
as for bars being terrible places to meet people…YES. and if my single friends want to go for a night out, i find a way to cancel because guys always seem like such sleazy idiots there. either that or they seem like they’ll take what they can get! i don’t want anything to do with that.
ok so my summary:
IGNORE THESE STUPID DATING RULES. THEY’VE NEVER MEANT A THING AND THEY’RE JUST MANIPULATIVE.
IGNORE ALL THIS STUFF ABOUT GENETICS AND EVOLUTIONARY PSYCHOLOGY TOO. i study genetics and have done a course in animal behaviour, all these figures you read online or in magazines are totally generalized and often leave out major chunks of information. i mean, i keep reading that humans are polygamous. why are we trying to make excuses for infidelity?? so what if monkeys are, we’re not fricken monkeys!! look up the stuff that was found on the prairie vole and the meadow vole, that research right there is PROOF that all these statements about humans being polygamous are not justified.
and if you want to meet a real girl, sort out your self-esteems issues and be more relaxed when you’re talking to them. i think basically you shouldn’t seem like you’re looking for anything from them, but that you’re just interested in getting to know them. but do seem interested.
Comment by Barbie — 7/31/2007 @ 1:30 pm
You know the problem is simple. A person can not serve two masters in wanting to be oneself and still trying to be someone else for this woman in your life. It is either serve one or the other. Be who you are and stop allowing someone else to define who you are. How many women do you see allowing men to define who they are. Why in heaven sake have men allowed themselves to allow women to define who they should be?
Comment by Sam — 7/31/2007 @ 1:32 pm
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Pingback by being single - Page 6 - DesignersTalk — 7/31/2007 @ 1:44 pm
Keep it REAL! If they are down then they are down. There is nothing that you can do or say that is going to make someone change their mind about the way they feel about you. There will be another one right around the block.
Comment by Aplacon — 7/31/2007 @ 1:44 pm
lol natural law
epic fail indeed
Comment by Anthony — 7/31/2007 @ 2:05 pm
Isn’t it the same with guys? Men are more attracted to b**ches than regular nice girls. The same argument can be applied to “nice girls” too.
Comment by JY — 7/31/2007 @ 2:26 pm
rape is the answer
Comment by CIA factbook — 7/31/2007 @ 2:39 pm
Women can be so frustrating. There has got to be more to life than washing the pepper spray out of your eyes after every date.
Comment by Jayson Barclay — 7/31/2007 @ 2:57 pm
[...] I just read an awesome article on the “nice guy paradox” which basically states that women claim they want a nice guy, but always end up with assholes. To sum it up, the article states that women want a guy that’s nice to her when he doesn’t have to be. They don’t want a doormat who is nice all the time because he has no other naturally attractive features. First, gain a woman’s attraction (by doing something other than being a pushover), then try being nice to her. Full article: http://dmiessler.com/blogarchive/the-nice-guy-paradox-solved [...]
Pingback by about me » Blog Archive » Nice guy paradox — 7/31/2007 @ 3:17 pm
After years of trying to find the answers dating and watching couples go on first dates, I’ve realized this myself as well. Women are attracted to men who lead and can take the reins, while keeping her thinking about your next moves. If you can keep her heart and mind stirring, she’s all yours. If you become predictable, it’s boring…sort of like a job. You don’t want to have to go to work and know exactly how your day will play out do you? On the other hand, it’s natural for them to want to “tame” the man once she’s got his attention. This tug of war battle is what keeps the relationship going and onto the next date. Usually, when one throws in the white flag, that’s when relationships and marriages don’t work out. One eventually gets bored and seeks excitement elsewhere. I’ll end my comment with one piece of advice. Be yourself no matter how attracted you are to this girl and treat and talk to her as if she’s the one who has to win you over. When you become a challenge, you’ve definitely got her attention. However, if you aren’t too good looking, you’ll have to find ways to get her attention initially and that usually takes some skills…something you can actually google online. Good luck to you all…do not let women walk all over you. Women are everywhere so keep in mind that if she doesn’t give you the time of the day, there’s always other women around the corner.
Comment by Johnny Player — 7/31/2007 @ 3:19 pm
Yes…most men are attracted to b****es than nice girls as well. However, these men are the ones who can usually attract women without much iniation from his part. It goes both ways…when you act like you don’t care, but seem to be interested enough in her, you can attract all sorts of women - keep that in mind. Unfortunately, physical attraction is the #1 factor in getting attention from the opposite sex.
Comment by Johnny Player — 7/31/2007 @ 3:23 pm
I am female, and totally pro-nice guys. However, I am more pro-funny guys that happen to be nice, or more pro-creative guys that happen to be nice…so I agree that it’s a weak leading trait, but believe that kindness will seal the deal in the long run. Kindness always has its place, as I’ve found through my really nice boyfriend, but that wasn’t the first thing I saw when I looked at him - I saw someone I could joke around with, play-argue with, and bounce ideas off of. Only after a year have I realized, hey, he’s the nicest guy I’ve ever met, go figure. And although his other traits were the reason I was first attracted to him, his kindness is the only reason I haven’t cheated on him or grown distracted after time.
My conclusion: Women will always value your kindness, but will be easily distracted unless you’ve got an interesting personality past that.
Comment by LTN — 7/31/2007 @ 3:39 pm
What if you’re a creep?
I mean, what if you’re perceived as a “nice guy” by other people to your own bewilderment - and you’re sure some women find you creepy?
I genuinely like to talk to strangers, I’m nice to them and use my manners… is that creepy? That’s how I act with all people, men or women.
To be honest I could care less. As was said in a previous post I’m not giving women much attention. If I never marry that’s cool. I’m strong (not fat like Scott said) and slender… I’m only 5′8″ and ~145lbs. In North America I’m sure that’s practically starved but I’m actually quite fit and happy.
I go outside and talk to strange people because it’s fun… I engage myself in hobbies all the time as well. If I never find someone then I’m cool with that. I just don’t want women to feel put off because they somehow think I want in their pants.
The funny thing is that it’s the ugly ones who seem to be put off… hah!
Perhaps they’re trying to win a game of power too and don’t see me as a suitable step-up… That’s nice… why are you thinking of me that way? I don’t believe I gave you any impression that I was interested. I merely made polite conversation. Don’t be too full of yourself, now.
I guess I really shouldn’t care but being the type of person I am I care deeply what others think of me. I don’t like it if I get the impression someone is uncomfortable or doesn’t like me for some reason.
The other side of the equation is that I’m not unattractive… perhaps I need to step up to the plate when some girl who equally cares for her own body and is remotely intelligent takes interest in me.
Bah, do I even want that? I’m not in a place in my life where I want to be with anyone for anything more than momentary pleasures anyway… a few good hours of causal sex here and there is good enough. I don’t need anything else. :P
That may seem rash but there are lots of women who seem to be out for the same thing.
shrug
It’s all so complicated (and yet so predictable).
Comment by creep — 7/31/2007 @ 3:45 pm
This is coming straight from the Ladder Theory (LadderWiki).
Comment by bob — 7/31/2007 @ 3:56 pm
Women like the ‘Bad Boy’ image. They gravitate towards a man when they see he has some characteristic of a ‘Bad Boy’. This does not mean he is uncouth, nor an A–h—….or he could be, except when they are around. Women make the mistake of going for the guy that doesn’t seem to be tamed. Because for soem reason they think it is their job to ‘fix’ him and make him better. Confidence, Power, Knowledge, and money are the keys to getting these types of women. It doesn’t matter if the actuality is true….just that the perception of CPKM is there. People only see what you allow them to see. They only believe what they understand or perceive to be true. Whether it is or not. CPKM is tough to fake….but I have seen and done it too many times to say its not the case. The problem is that once the guy gets the woman, he finds out he may really want more than what he initially found attractive.
Comment by Dennis — 7/31/2007 @ 4:36 pm
I feel like we all somehow knew this already but wouldn’t be able to express it well. that was well written good job.
Comment by tom — 7/31/2007 @ 4:45 pm
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Pingback by My little collection of randomness » Blog Archive » The Real Reason Women Don’t Like “Nice” Guys — 7/31/2007 @ 7:32 pm
Please credit the illustration/image. It looks like it came from a french animated movie.
Comment by logicalnot — 7/31/2007 @ 8:01 pm
WHY THE AUTHOR IS ONLY HALF RIGHT
It’s a truism that one has to be attractive to a woman for reasons other than being nice before nice becomes a factor. But even then, being nice is going to make it LESS likely you will get the girl. And I’m not talking about the doormat factor. I’m talking about confident nice, the kind that doesn’t involve being a pushover. Like remembering her birthday and scheduling a romantic dinner: at a restaurant, after the game.
But, for most women, even a non-doormat, attractive nice guy is LESS likely to get the girl than the guy who isn’t. Given the choice of two guys equally attractive, women will STILL go for the jerk. Because…
Nice guys are dangerous.
See, a woman can date a jerk, see it through to the end, and never risk her self-esteem. Because all relationships that don’t lead to “til death do we part” end. And when a relationship — be ie a one-night-stand, an awkward friend with benefits, or a full-on relationship — ends, the woman has to ask herself why.
With a jerk, the answer is easy. It’s because he’s a jerk. The woman gets the benefits of the relationship while it’s going, and when it’s over she gets the benefit of being the victim.
But if she dates a Nice Guy and it doesn’t work out…now whose fault is that?
Comment by Pat McCall — 7/31/2007 @ 8:32 pm
I say find someone you can tolerate and get married, settle, just settle because seriously you will always find something about your ” other” that you don’t like but learning to deal with and accept one anothers flaws is the point, just settle and have kids and get chubby and be happy and focus on other things one can do with ones life because the ideal person does not exist for anyone because we change and we grow and we want different things, so find someone you can stand to grow with and enjoy sharing a bed with
Comment by Jenn the couch elf — 7/31/2007 @ 9:13 pm
I can’t believe I didn’t think of this before. The logic behind the argument holds water. My only question, or belief, is if there is a change in the man’s state of mind (or change in confidence), is there a corresponding change in his treatment of women.
Comment by Jim — 7/31/2007 @ 9:49 pm
[...] 1, 2007 at 3:59 am · Filed under men, love Here’s an interesting conversation on another blog about the nice guy issue. Hmmm. I’d have to say I agree, especially I saw [...]
Pingback by nice guy paradox « proper or pleased — 7/31/2007 @ 10:59 pm
Reading this article as well as all these comments has really been an eye opener for me. As much as I look for advice on girls, I seem to find that in the end, ALL ADVICE CONTRADICTS!! It’s very frustrating and I often end up more confused than before.
Judging by the majority of comments that are in agreement to some degree or another with the article, I’m comfortable in assessing this “solution” as a very valuable lesson learned for me. In addition to the all important “being yourself,” the importance of being more than just the nice guy makes very clear logical sense. Contrasting from some other people discussing this, I think I may have done a reverse INTO nice-guy-ism. Up until last year when I started college, I sat on the sidelines and just figured that a good girl and a relationship would come naturally. But honestly, I laid eyes on this one girl at the beginning of the year, and immediately I knew I had to take control. From that point, I felt like I had to bend over backwards for her at every turn and that in the end, I would be rewarded for my efforts (as well as for my humor, because I think I have a pretty good sense of it). But I now realize that the world just doesn’t work like that. While I think I’ve always been a nice person and I shouldn’t change that about my character, I realize that in the relationship arena, and in normal everyday life for that matter, I have to be a man. I have to be confident, in charge of my own life, honest with myself AND her (great point by Adam #81), and probably most importantly, be myself.
Now I’m no stud, but I’ll just say that my situation is a work-in-progress. But anyways, I have gone through dozens of scenarios in my head as to how to “woo” or whatever, and with every meaningful, legitimate piece of advice I receive, I look back in terror at my old perceptions of love. “How could I have even considered that! Was I insane!? That would be suicide! Stupid! Stupid!” I’ve been racking my brains.
But the jist of what I’m trying to say is that while there is ALOT of advice out there, but THIS MAKES SENSE TO EVERYONE! TO GUYS AND GIRLS! Don’t be a pushover, be nice to her but don’t not act like the man you are.
Comment by blahblahUS — 7/31/2007 @ 11:09 pm
[...] The Nice Guy Paradox [Solved] | dmiessler.com Posted by jds1337 on August 1st, 2007 | Filed in Uncategorized | [...]
Pingback by ParadoxSystems » The Nice Guy Paradox [Solved] | dmiessler.com — 8/1/2007 @ 12:13 am
[...] The Nice Guy Paradox [Solved] | dmiessler.com Women like when guys are nice to them, but only when they don’t have to be. (tags: interesting relationships) [...]
Pingback by links for 2007-08-01 « 5typos.net — 8/1/2007 @ 1:26 am
Charm! Men with Charisma is what gets women. Looks, humor, money, size, are all a bonus. But charm will bit all that in my believes anyway. Nice guy not nice it wont matter. It is very hard to define what make men Charismatic, some are born with it, in others it’s a combination of many side of ones character.
Once you found you other half I say people should be free. Freedom is the only thing that makes us truly happy and open-minded. Marriage is created by church or religious believes and i really think this custom along with religion will die out sooner or later. To have a family, marriage and everything that comes with it in my opinion is unnecessary. Couple with or withoute kids where Man or woman can go there separate ways anyday will mostlikely to stay together. People should not be tied up together so much in everyday bullshit with no room to move, they should not sleep in the same bed every single night, they will loose their “attractive fields”.
Maybe I’m wrong…
Comment by Wizard — 8/1/2007 @ 2:05 am
Here’s what I think (16 year old girl’s point of view):
While that blog does make a good point there’s a difference between a “nice guy” and guy who is a pushover. A girl isn’t going to want a guy that has no confidince (usually) and gets walked all over. They want someone who’ll stand up for themselves. After all, if they don’t stand up for themselves you can’t expect them to protect the girl.
But don’t blame the girl, the blog is right, it’s nature.
Growing up, girls are made to believe (by the media and people around them) that they need a strong, manly man to protect them and take care of them, finding a guy who is nice is secondary. (or maybe looks are secondary? But that depends on the girl.) When they are older they dream of finding Mr. Perfect; strong/confident, good-looking, and nice. But that’s a rare find so girls usually just settle for 2 out of 3.
Comment by Beata — 8/1/2007 @ 3:03 am
Well, I’m commenting so late in the discussion I don’t know if anyone will read this but here I go.
I think the article’s main point is pretty much correct. Women are generally turned off at signs of weakness and this is pretty understandable behavior, after all, who wants those traits for their children?
Still, I think many (most actually) women are too quick to judge and dismiss ‘nice’ guys. Not all ‘nice’ guys are weak, some actually have great strength of character and confidence in general, except with respect to their attractiveness.
Fortunately for these guys it all works out well in the end. There are women out there that have similar strength of character and intelligence who can look and actively search past that superficial behavior since these are the women worth being with anyway.
You’ll notice them all too easily (if perhaps rarely, there’s not that many) when they don’t dismiss you. Instead you’ll see they’ll show their interest by either being ‘nice’ themselves (only temporarily, to make you feel comfortable) or by testing your inner character in some way.
If you (the ‘nice’ guy) are ready for a relationship (you still have to come to terms with reality) you’ll recognize her at this point and things just might work out for you.
Still, this doesn’t mean you should hold off on working on your self confidence regarding your attractiveness until such a girl comes along. You’ll still recognize the good ones even if not filtering them through your apparently weak behavior. And they will still recognize you.
Comment by Seb — 8/1/2007 @ 3:09 am
[...] Dmiessler.com: Most guys know about the nice guy paradox. It’s where they’ve been told since they were young [...]
Pingback by xocea » The Nice Guy Paradox [Solved] — 8/1/2007 @ 4:21 am
I slap bitches around like Sean Connery http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzXkbJwrN38
Comment by SC — 8/1/2007 @ 4:46 am
Great article! It’s verisimilar - I can fully agree with your “study”. Very well explained, thanks from Germany.
Estland
Comment by Estland — 8/1/2007 @ 5:59 am